July 6, 2021December 5, 2023 by Tim Ferriss

Dr. Andrew Huberman — A Neurobiologist on Optimizing Sleep, Enhancing Performance, Reducing Anxiety, Increasing Testosterone, and Using the Body to Control the Mind (#521)

Topics: The 4-Hour Body - 4HB, The Tim Ferriss Show

Artist's rendering of Dr. Andrew Huberman — Illustration via 99designs

“Use the body to control the mind.”
— Dr. Andrew Huberman

Andrew Huberman, PhD (@hubermanlab), is a neuroscientist and tenured professor in the Department of Neurobiology at Stanford University’s School of Medicine. He has made numerous important contributions to the fields of brain development, brain function, and neural plasticity. Andrew is a McKnight Foundation and Pew Foundation fellow and recipient of the 2017 Cogan Award for his discoveries in the study of vision. Work from the Huberman Laboratory at Stanford Medicine has been consistently published in top journals including Nature, Science, and Cell.

Andrew is host of the Huberman Lab podcast, which he launched in January of this year. The show aims to help viewers and listeners improve their health with science and science-based tools. New episodes air every Monday on YouTube and all podcast platforms.

Please enjoy!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Stitcher, Castbox, Google Podcasts, or on your favorite podcast platform. You can watch the interview on YouTube here.

Brought to you by Athletic Greens all-in-one nutritional supplement and Helix Sleep premium mattresses.

You can find the transcript of this episode here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.

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#521: Dr. Andrew Huberman — A Neurobiologist on Optimizing Sleep, Enhancing Performance, Reducing Anxiety, Increasing Testosterone, and Using the Body to Control the Mind

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What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.

SCROLL BELOW FOR LINKS AND SHOW NOTES…

Want to hear an episode with someone else who casually enjoys the thrill of a cage-free shark adventure? Lend an ear to my conversation with TOMS Shoes founder Blake Mycoskie, in which we discuss serial entrepreneurship, his own pattern disruption with the Hoffman Process, a public service announcement for the psychedelically curious, the relationship dynamics of conscious uncoupling, and much more.

#446: Blake Mycoskie — TOMS, The Hoffman Process, Conscious Uncoupling, and Psychedelics

SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE

Connect with Dr. Andrew Huberman:

Website | Twitter | YouTube | Instagram

SHOW NOTES

Why might vision be a secret to surviving 2020 — or any year, for that matter? [05:41]
Visual considerations for optimizing sleep quality. [15:11]
A simple new routine that’s been elevating my mood in the mornings, and what Andrew recommends for timing circadian biology to, as wise bards of yore have proclaimed, accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative. [18:25]
When is the ideal time to get morning light exposure, and how can we use an understanding of our body temperature minimum to shift our circadian clock if we want to avoid jet lag and the impact of working at odd hours? [23:55]
Why Andrew is not a fan of melatonin as a sleep aid, and what he recommends instead. [31:03]
Andrew’s thoughts on taking phosphatidylserine before sleep to help blunt cortisol release, and what he uses to similar effect. [37:15]
The real reason why Andrew applies the term NSDR (non-sleep deep rest) to yoga nidra and a free hypnosis app called Reveri, and the value someone might find in their practice no matter what they decide to call them. [42:26]
What are physiological sighs, and how can we use them at any time to reduce stress without the burden of preparation other protocols demand? [47:43]
Andrew explains what hypnosis is and determines how susceptible to it I would be. [52:26]
What are some of the most practical applications of hypnosis, and do the states induced by it have any shared characteristics with those induced by psychedelics? [56:27]
Considering the future of beneficial brain change and the synergestic combinations that might just get us there. [1:04:06]
With a past that wouldn’t suggest a tenured future in academia and a penchant for fighting, what happened to Andrew on July 4th of 1994 that changed the trajectory of his life? [1:07:58]
Why taking a leave of absence from university isn’t the same thing as dropping out — no matter how many tech founder origin stories like to paint their subject in the glamorous, devil-may-care light of the latter rather than the pragmatic former. [1:15:02]
How Andrew’s “magical” childhood pivoted to one of tension, disruption, and depression almost overnight, and what he did at the time (and in many ways is still doing) to cope. [1:17:38]
What is the Hoffman Process, and how has it helped Andrew? [1:28:44]
If Hoffman was just one of four or five things that had a disproportionately positive impact on Andrew, what are some of those other things? [1:33:00]
On pets and mortality, canine research with rapamycin, and why any scientist gunning for a Nobel Prize might not be amiss by changing their surname to Sabatini or Kornberg. [1:37:46]
If you like tales of adventure, listen to Andrew talk about that time he went exit cage diving with great white sharks, a bunch of madmen in Mexico, and breathless undersea technical difficulties — for science! Then marvel at what he did to purge himself of the fear, anxiety, and trauma of the experience. [1:39:11]
How does Andrew define fear, and has he always been fascinated by it? [1:47:00]
What is turmeric’s effect on DHT? Would finasteride (Propecia) behave similarly? [1:50:15]
Underscoring how powerful DHT is with the phenomenon of the Dominican Republic’s guevedoce. [1:55:57]
Does Andrew think a compound responsible for DHT inhibition could influence the gender of a pregnant woman’s offspring? A late colleague’s story might have some answers. [1:57:44]
What does Andrew recommend for optimizing testoterone? [2:00:05]
It’s very hard to get a biological free lunch: the perils of testosterone replacement therapy and other testosterone-boosting efforts done haphazardly. [2:05:45]
Why messing with hormone balance can actually accelerate aging. [2:09:44]
Andrew’s thoughts on cognitive enhancement from the pharmacological/supplement side. [2:12:27]
Why yerba mate is my favorite caffeine vehicle, and a recommendation from Andrew. [2:15:09]
Why you might benefit from waiting 90 minutes to two hours after waking to ingest your first cup of caffeine, and what we can learn from Roland Griffiths’ excursions into the realm of caffeine research. [2:16:43]
Is there a way to counteract the effects of caffeine? [2:18:24]
What is the vagus nerve, and why is it fascinating on the fronts of physiology and psychiatry? [2:21:57]
What books has Andrew gifted most to other people? [2:28:43]
What would Andrew’s billboards say? [2:31:20]
Parting thoughts. [2:34:05]

PEOPLE MENTIONED

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Yves

2 years ago

Hi,
The dosage of Magnesium Threonate is confusing : Andrew mentions taking 200/400mg, but the bottles talk about 144mg of Magnesium FROM 2000mg of Magnesium Threonate.

What does this mean, and which dosage is to be followed, the “magnesium from” or the Magnesium threonate?

Robert

2 years ago

Reply to Yves

Ive noticed this as well. Any information here would be helpful

Admin

Team Tim Ferriss

2 years ago

Reply to Robert

Hi, Robert –

This was a popular question, and so we asked Andrew if he would reply, and here is what he said:

“145mg Magnesium Threonate or 200mg Magnesium Bisglycinate is great as a starting place. I would only take the minimum needed for great sleep. On the bottle it often lists two amounts: elemental magnesium and “magnesium”. The lower amount is the one to pay attention to.”

Hope that helps!

Best,

Team Tim Ferriss for Andrew Huberman

Andrew R

2 years ago

Reply to Yves

Yes this would be appreciated. I’m ready to pull the trigger for these items online but need to know how much to get.

Admin

Team Tim Ferriss

2 years ago

Reply to Andrew R

Hi, Andrew –

This was a popular question, and so we asked Andrew if he would reply, and here is what he said:

Hope that helps!

Best,

Team Tim Ferriss for Andrew Huberman

David Y

2 years ago

Reply to Yves

I too am curious about the correct dosage. Like the original poster I have a brand of magnesium that states 144mg of Mg from 2000mg of magnesium threonate. I’m currently starting at 2/3 dose 2 hrs before bedtime and 1/3 dose around breakfast. The 144mg/2000mg is from a dosage of 3 capsules. How do we apply Prof. Huberman’s 200/400 recommendation to these magnesium brands? Am I over or under? Btw I really enjoyed this episode and appreciate all the links

April

2 years ago

Reply to David Y

Did anyone get any clarification on this?

Kelly

2 years ago

Reply to David Y

I’ve been trying to get clarification on this dosage too after hearing him on JRE!

Brendan

2 years ago

Reply to David Y

I’d also love clarification on this. I just started Andrew’s sleep supplement regimen a few nights ago and have been taking 4000mg to get 288mg of ‘elemental magnesium’ out of the threonate. I’ve been sleeping quite well, but my dreams have been too intense/vivid, probably due to the 400mg of theanine. Would love to know exactly how much threonine to take though. Perhaps it’s worth contacting the supplement companies to get clarification to see if they can share the studies Huberman is referencing as well as the threonate conversion process.

Admin

Team Tim Ferriss

2 years ago

Reply to David Y

Hi, David –

This was a popular question, and so we asked Andrew if he would reply, and here is what he said:

Hope that helps!

Best,

Team Tim Ferriss for Andrew Huberman

Donna

2 years ago

Reply to Yves

Too bad they never answered this question. It seems pretty important if you are actually trying to implement something from his information.

Admin

Team Tim Ferriss

2 years ago

Reply to Donna

Hi, Donna –

This was a popular question, and so we asked Andrew if he would reply, and here is what he said:

Hope that helps!

Best,

Team Tim Ferriss for Andrew Huberman

Admin

Team Tim Ferriss

2 years ago

Reply to Yves

Hi, Yves –

This was a popular question, and so we asked Andrew if he would reply, and here is what he said:

Hope that helps!

Best,

Team Tim Ferriss for Andrew Huberman

The Other Tim

2 years ago

Reply to Team Tim Ferriss

So popular, I keep seeing the reply, I can almost quote it now.

Todd

2 years ago

Not specifically related to this specific episode, but do you offer a bound /printed version of the Tao of Seneca? Thanks

Admin

Team Tim Ferriss

2 years ago

Reply to Todd

Hi, Todd –

Tao of Seneca is only available as a download.

Best,

Team Tim Ferriss

Martha Ramus

2 years ago

What are your thoughts on CBD for improving quality of sleep ?

spyrelx

2 years ago

Reply to Martha Ramus

Martha, check out Huberman’s own podcast (the Huberman Lab) – the first bunch of episodes are all about sleep. My recollection (which might be faulty) is that he talks briefly about CBD and is not a proponent of it. Hope that helps.

John Paul

2 years ago

This should be labelled as “Super Treat” episode. Thanks so much and looking forward for the part 2, 3, 4…and more!

Lis

2 years ago

I would like to know what brand of ashwaganda either TIm or Andrew Huberman recommend please. There are so many brands out there I won’t know what is actually good quality, effective and very importantly safe. Thanks Lis

Dustin

2 years ago

Reply to Lis

Ashwagandha KSM-66 is popular. There are many brands that have use that version of it.

George

2 years ago

Hi,

When it comes to restitution after a workout, is resting = sleep?
eg. let’s say I have worked out (isometric exercises mainly, not HIT), then I wake up after not enough sleep. Now I can’t really get myself to sleep, but do I gain the same benefit by just closing my eyes being completely relaxed on the sofa?

All the best,
George

Mark

2 years ago

Reply to George

Thanks Tim for the very valuable material in this episode. Great work, as always. I just wished you’d have asked about his thoughts on pine pollen and the difference with the other supplements he mentioned. Are those supplements better than pine pollen?

Tiago Murao

2 years ago

Undoubtedly a great episode with a lot of scientific evidence. Thanks a lot!

Nathan Hinson

2 years ago

Tim, thanks for being a champion for mental health and for the important role psychedelics are increasingly playing in the treatment and management of mental disorders. I am a chronic sufferer of depression, anxiety, PTSD, and substance abuse disorder. Thanks in part to your content; content your have recommended; and aided by an incredible support network of friends, family, and medical professionals; I received my first clinically guided ketamine infusion yesterday. I am thrilled to feel significant relief of symptoms in only 1 day. Thanks again! Keep up the good fight of challenging the cultural stigma of mental health issues, and specifically the role psychedelics play in that fight!

Bill Montgomery

2 years ago

Hi, what was the name of the free hypnosis app that was mentioned? I looked but couldn’t find it.

Sheila McQueen

2 years ago

Reply to Bill Montgomery

Hope this helps! https://www.reveri.com/

Clare O'Connor

2 years ago

Whenever there is a episode about sleep, I am always curious about the experts thoughts on thee impacts of caring for babies, and the trade off of the adults sleep/wellbeing. I know infant sleep is a hot topic (sleep training- ugh!) in an of itself and that’s not really what this comment is about, more about how to reconcile disordered/disrupted sleep in the context of caring for a brand new human. The first time I heard Matthew Walker speak I thought I was going to have a stroke based on how many years I had gone with poor sleep (first child did not ever, ever sleep through the night until he was 3!). Would be curious to hear about optimizing that season in life. Thank you!

Anne

2 years ago

Reply to Clare O'Connor

Andrew does deal with this issue in one of his podcast episodes. If you follow the link you can scroll down the time stamps and select the time where he discusses children. It’s quite interesting. https://tinyurl.com/us96jpec [Moderator: YouTube link was changed to tinyurl link to preclude video embed.]

spyrelx

2 years ago

HIs highlighting of Tongkat Ali for Testosterone is odd. Per Examine.com (which he also recommends): “On the testosterone side of things, the literature appears to be needlessly promising. No peer-reviewed evidence currently establishes Eurycoma as a testosterone booster in otherwise healthy persons or rats but many studies are quick to cite presentations by an M.I Tambi claiming these boosts in testosterone. None of Dr.Tambi’s research presented in conferences appears to be indexed in Medline and the claims expressed cannot be proven.” Also, most studies that show any effect for anything related to the herb use an extract, whereas he seems to take the pure herb (which would I think be much weaker). Any explanation for these discrepancies?

Joshua

2 years ago

That is actually a misnomer – even the act of “using the body to control the mind” first requires the conscious awareness to do so. A decision always comes first. Everything is mental.

Liam

2 years ago

I’ve been a big fan of Andrew ever since hearing him on the JRE a while back. His podcasts are incredibly interesting and are very high quality. Tim, I’m really glad you sat Andrew down and dug deeper into his story – I found it fascinating and inspiring. I look up to you both and I’m eternally grateful for the work that you do.

I hope I’m right in that I detected a bit of a bromance! Really looking forward to a part two.

Best wishes from Scotland,
Liam

Dustin

2 years ago

For herbal supplements look for those that are standardized to the active ingredients that are believe to give the benefits people take them for. That way you get some consistency in what you’re getting in every batch. For tongkat ali, 2% or more eurycomanone is thought to be good. For ashwagandha, the KSM-66 standardized to equal to or greater than 5% withanolides is popular.

Desolate Moon

2 years ago

So after we take in information we should rest about 20 min after to retain it better?

Ibrahim

2 years ago

Wow! What an incredible conversation!
This episode if full of treasures!

Thank You So Much Tim
For being a bridge for us to get this knowledge.
And For being a bridge for this knowledge to reach us

Mark

2 years ago

Great episode, been following you both for years. On the topic of death in your recent Email, I came across a cover song by Bright Eyes that really helped me to embrace death, I Flirted With You All My Life. Give it a listen. Original song by Vic Chesnutt, a folk singer who struggled with being disabled a majority of his life from an accident and recently died at 45.

Mary

2 years ago

Two brilliant guys who have spent a lot of time working on themselves talking about to optimize oneself (mainly if oneself is an adult man). I was fascinated with the initial discussion of ocular and respiratory function, the circadian rhythms and how they operate best in harmony with the sun. I would have loved to have heard the conversation turn a charitable eye toward children and how their visual experiences affect their emotions, stress hormones, sleep cycles. That soda-straw vision is a lot of what most kids take in these days via screens in hand, on lap, and on large TVs. As a mom, I would love for you guys who have learned so much about the world to help apply it to those who need it most. Those of us in the trenches creating the next generation can look at you guys like, wow, they’re so amazing, they’re so smart and accomplished, they know everything. We’re listening; but instead of employing this data to help our testosterone levels or our own personal metrics, we’re interpreting how this can help our children, who live in an increasingly unnatural environment, with increasingly unnatural consequences. I’m sure I’m off-base because I’m not your audience, but you could be making a real difference with just a little openness to helping those other than yourselves. I hate feeling like the smart men of the world are more interested in the next generation of robots than the next generation of kids. 😢 Apologies if this feels too critical; it’s meant to be more a plea than a criticism. Even if you go on helping middle-aged men better themselves, it may indirectly benefit the rest of us—but there is heavy lifting being done around you to keep life afloat and I’d love to sense you know it.

steveinpc

2 years ago

Amazing, long, super interesting episode; I love this guy – he’s a mix of Henry Rollins, Jocko, Charles Poliquin and a neuroscientist all wrapped up in one.

Carli

2 years ago

I loved this one, I had never heard Huberman talk about his personal journey and It was inspiring.
I have to admit that I get lost in the more medical technical parts and so I would love to hear on your podcast from Christian Angermayer, he has expressed that he would like it on my twitter account and I have a feeling that if you invite him on your podcast good things are going to happen, maybe you can discover a more applicable source of psychedelics to improve day to day well being. And it’s not just you, there are millions of people who can benefit from it.
He talks a lot about visualization, so I’m already vizualizing a podcast with you two 🙂

Here’s a recent podcast with him
[Moderator: link to “E72: A Billionaire’s Guide To Healing Your Mind And Extending Your Life – Christian Angermayer” on YouTube removed due to Youtube link policy.]

Best regards,
Carli

Yan

2 years ago

Such a fantastic episode!. Thank you Tim and Andrew. I expect myself to listen to this over and over again. Lots to digest and implement.

Kevin Connelly

2 years ago

Great episode, Tim. Thinking about how directly connected our sight and breath is to the nervous system was paradigm shifting for me. Thanks for the great content!

Derick Ball

2 years ago

Extraordinary session. One of the most valuable ever. Thank you both x 1000. Please do another session!

David

2 years ago

Hello, I am trying to find the research article or articles that Andrew is referring to from this comment in the podcast: “I just call it biology. I mean, when I learned, for instance, that I’m taking a thousand milligrams per day of EPA, essential fatty acids, not just fish oil, but getting above that threshold, is as effective as antidepressants. In double-blind, placebo-controlled studies….”
Also, does anyone have any recommendations or links to products with good sources of EPA?

Johnnie

2 years ago

Reply to David

I’m a bit confused about this as well, and this is why I came to comments for some clarification. Also because in Tim’s recent Random Show with Kev Kev he discusses his increased intake of EPA for sleep. My looking into research points to DHA for sleep, EPA for depression (I think I got that right). I am looking to improve both, so am cranking up the fish oil, but clarification about whether Tim or Andrew misspoke, and what time of day is best to take the supplements would be greatly appreciated!

felipecsl

2 years ago

Reply to Johnnie

I’m also looking for an answer to this question. If anyone finds these studies mentioned by Dr. Huberman, please share!

Annemarie

2 years ago

Reply to Johnnie

Here is some research on DHA / EPA on sleep:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7830450/
In the study they instruct the participants to take it at night.

Jeannine Lanoux

2 years ago

Enjoyed the episode greatly – thanks. Have a follow up question regarding apigenin and it’s efficacy for sleep in women. Thanks!

Alicia

2 years ago

Dear Tim and Team,
thank you for an amazing podcast episode. I am a junior doctor and I am finding some real inspiration in your podcast on why I studied medicine in the first place. Regarding advice for sleep I just wanted to mention that Dr. Huberman recommended Apigenin for men only on other speaking occasions. Maybe it would be good to put a disclaimer here as I don’t recall a mentioning of this in the episode.
On this note are there any experts that you would recommend that look specifically at biological gender specific supplements etc. especially when it comes to hormonal effects.
Thanks a lot and best regards from Germany.

Daniel Cherdak

2 years ago

Loved this interview, super interesting. Especially towards the end where you guys started talking about the different interactions between hormones and supplements. It was a bit difficult for me to keep up with it though. What texts do you recommend reading to better follow along these in the weeds sections of your podcasts?

Pay

2 years ago

Sadly, I cannot find any Fadogia Agrestis sold in Canada. Any help with this? Not everything they speak about is available everywhere…

Heidi

2 years ago

Really appreciated the conversation and Dr. Huberman’s particular expertise. It would have been better had it not been so male-premised in such an unacknowledged way. I heard an occasional reference to women but, given how scientifically-focused the discussion was, I would have hoped to see more clarifying and acknowledging about who the data underpinning his recommendations is from (percent men and women in the referenced studies, including sex in animal studies), and giving clear guidance to women. And a PS – really struggling with the flippant attitude about porn (eg from this episode: the giggly “…ah, that on-line viewing…hee hee hee…”). I would love to see an interview with someone like Dr. Alex Katehakis about the aspects of porn addiction (and underlying trauma that drives virtually all of it) and/or experts like the folks at Fight the New Drug who could speak to porn’s undeniable link to sex trafficking, lack of verified consent, racism, depictions of aggression toward women as the norm, and majority), impact on real-life intimacy and on and on.

Outis Nemov

2 years ago

Please consider interviewing…

Dr. Gregory P. Smith.

I just watched his TEDx talk, and found it amazing!

It would be great if more people got to hear his story.

TEDx TALK:
Forest hermit to Professor, it’s never too late to change. | Dr. Gregory P. Smith | TEDxByronBay

BOOK:
Out of the Forest: The true story of a recluse

Ben Gillett

2 years ago

I really enjoyed this interview and found it helpful – thanks! I completely agree with Tim and Andrew that breathing is almost like an API into your autonomic nervous system. I hadn’t heard about the physiological sigh before and have been trying it for an immediate benefit in stressful situations. I find the scientific evidence related to resonance frequency breathing for anxiety and sleep really compelling – and it was interesting to check out the work of Dr Leah Lagos as Tim suggested. I created some music to make it easier to do resonance frequency breathing. All aspects of the music were designed based on the latest scientific research in this area. I thought this combination of breathwork, science and mental health in combination with the fact it’s a kind of hack to try and get as many of the relaxation benefits of meditation with minimum effort might be of interest to Tim and his listeners. This is a non profit thing and any streaming revenues go to Cool Earth. Just search for ‘Harmonic Breathing’ in Google or Spotify or wherever you get your music from. I’d love to hear feedback from anyone who tries it. Thanks!

Aristotle

2 years ago

Thank you so much Tim and Andrew for the generous content.

While discussing yoga nidra Andrew said “Self-inducing a state of calm through respiration and vision is the hallmark of yoga nidra and hypnosis, and frankly, of all meditative practices.”

If one should pulse his/her cortisol in the morning should one wait til the afternoon or the evening to meditate?

Also, about 4 – years ago some people were reporting that the warmer spectrum LEDs: 2700K, 3000K were actually emitting undetected blue light which was throwing off people’s circadian rhythm. Do you know whether or not this has been corrected? I still use low wattage amber incandescent in the evenings. There is nothing like it on the planet. I also have found that dimming regular incandescent can change the color to amber. Very relaxing.

Thanks again for helping us keep our sanity.

Whitt

2 years ago

I struggle with understanding/forcing myself to go into action, instead of succumbing to the millions of informational articles and videos out there to consume. While I don’t spend a ton of time watching irrelevant stupid videos, I might say my obsession with consuming more and more information relevant to my goals is outstripping my ability to actually do the things to get there. Does anyone else feel the same way. It’s easy to sit back and watch another video or read another article about how to do the things you want to do, it’s much harder to go do them and I always feel like that next bit of knowledge is essential and if I miss out on it, I’ll be that much more behind.

lucas bravo

2 years ago

This was an excellent episode with a great deal of scientific evidence. Thanks a lot!

Ayan Lee

2 years ago

Very informative & helpful.
I really appreciate your efforts on this episode.
Good one. Thanks for sharing this wonderful episode.

Ayan Lee

2 years ago

Very informative & helpful.
I really appreciate your efforts in doing this episode.
Good one. Thanks for sharing this wonderful episode Mr. Andrew & Mr. Tim.

Mr. Andrew, I have one doubt. Meditation is another great way to handle stress,
anxiety, and to find inner peace.
Does cultivating a habit of doing meditation helps to control the mind?
Do you agree?

Nathalie

3 months ago

Thank you for an amazing podcast. I would like to recommend for a future podcast one of my teachers Doug Keller as an expert in yoga nidra (and all aspect of yoga in relation to the physical layer, the nervous system layer, mental, emotional, wisdom and bliss layers). I think you would find him extremely knowledgeable and your two minds combined would be spectacular. [Moderator: website removed.]